Jeremiah is explicit that such occurred here: Jeremiah 7:3132 (ESV) And they have built the high places of Topheth, which is in the Valley of the Son of Hinnom, to burn their sons and their daughters in the fire, which I did not command, nor did it come into my mind. Gray land and gray sky throughout, with no sun . . There was not a trash pile perpetually burning. [I have no clue what v.15 you are talking about so you can spare us that.]. About the same time, G. R. Beasley-Murray made a similar observation: The notion, still referred to by some commentators, that the citys rubbish was burned in this valley,has no further basis than a statement by the Jewish scholar Kimhi made about A.D. 1200; it is not attested in any ancient source. You would think this would have been addressed early on if the case was clear cut and universal salvation was heresy. This passage appears to me about the situation immediately after God's victory, so it is surely not placed during a time when the New Jerusalem has already been established for a long time. The books of Kings and Chronicles tell us that a wealthy family named "Hinnom" owned a garden near Jerusalem which first King Ahaz, and then even more audaciously, King Manasseh turned into a place for burning children as a sacrifice to the god Molech. Hell, detail in Pieter Bruegel the Elder's Dull Griet, 1561 . It is a widespread misconception by twisting around this or that word in the bible, you suddenly can change the content of the Christian faith. In any case, we will provide honest advice. In the case of life age-during, that life is with God, who is eternal. Hell is the place of the future punishment called "Gehenna" or "Gehenna of fire". If 'aeturnum' always means 'eternal' then Jerome put his foot in his mouth when he wrote this. One of the immediate problems of any hermeneutics about Gehenna is the religious . If He only referred to Gehenna itself, a garbage dump that was used as an incinerator outside the city of Jerusalem, the teachers of the law and the Pharisees in Jesus' time had nothing to do with the judgment of Gehenna. The interpretive contortions the universalists and eternal tormenters engaged in made my head hurt! Rather than restate much that has been said before, let me just point you and any interested readers to a couple of articles on the issue of eternal punishment (which was not the subject of this post). Neovia group's Profile, Revenue and Employees. Its fires were kept continually burning (an everlasting lake of fire!) Gehenna Gehenna is the plane of suspicion and greed. For example, eternal salvation doesn't mean God is saving us daily (rather an eternal result of a one time event) just as eternal judgment not mean God is tormenting the lost daily, rather the one time event (the second death) had eternal result as well. (v.24) In Matt 5:22 there is a similar passage where three offenses are mentioned and three punishments that result. Bell says, Gehenna, in Jesus's day, was the city dump People tossed their garbage and waste into this valley. Mk. Jude uses the fate of Sodom as recounted in Genesis as a type of divine punishment. But that statement says nothing about God no longer being God after the ages. Who said it was a statement of limitation when did your "statement of fact" become a "statement of limitation"? Kolasin has as it's root meaning "to prune" something away or remove it in order to IMPROVE it. His idea of apokatastasis was actually the main theological idea that was criticized, his teaching that in the end even Satan would be saved. All will be reconciled with God in the fullness of time, at the end of the ages. The people in the surrounding areas dumped their trash in Gehenna, where it burned day and night. Of course you must look towards anti-Origenists to find out about that, not admirers of the man who swept his errors (with which they didn't agree) under the carpet like Eusebius or Rufinus. The rest of the chapter goes on to reassure Israel that they will not all be killed in this judgment. It differs from the neutral-leaning Sheol as Gehenna was considered a type of waiting room; the longest one can be there is 11 or 12 months with few exceptions. He got into trouble with a lot of people over many things, but one area of his teaching was never assailed by any church council and that was his teaching on universal salvation.". Because the church is not a "club for solving real and apparent biblical contradictions", it is not a "bible study club". If this is supposed to be a literal story about the suffering of an eternal "hell", there would be no need to explain the gulf as being necessary to prevent people from going from Abraham's bosom to the other side where there is torment. The move is part of its restructuring following the acquisition of Neovia in 2019 for US$1.81bn. So no "this verse could be left out" reasoning. But I doubt that it was "never condemned", it certainly was in Origen's case. He must be alive. And he mentions those who would go from where he himself was to the other side where the torment was FIRST. Gregory of Nyssa, another prominent teacher of universalism, drafted the part of the Nicean creed dealing with the trinity. Should a Complementarian Speak with Lady Preachers? Well before the time of Jesus, the valley was also used as a refuse heap. Salvation does not have to be eternal. The idea is that the Valley of Hinnon laid just south of Jerusalem, immediately outside its walls,and that all the refuse and waste from Jerusalem was burned there, and it was pretty much the most disgusting and horrifying place on earth. The first post-apostolic council at Nicea was chaired by Gregory Nazianzen who was a universalist. Your quiet deliberations and considerations are refreshing and leave me with hope and joy, is this not the work of the Ekklesia? Worms and fire normally die and go out (no need for nitpicking about how going out is not being quenched) this is why Jesus raises the point that these worms and this fire (which is obviously figurative language) do NOT DIE and do NOT GO OUT. Jesus used this term. Outline of Biblical Usage [?] Therefore, this valley, this Gehenna, was a detestable place to God's people. By Jesus' time, the Valley of Hinnom was a full fledged garbage dump with its wretched rotting aromas, howls of scavenging wild animals, and smoldering and perpetual fires. Lambs? The 'flesh' is also the context of what Isaiah 66:24 is dealing with. I brought up a similar situation in the parable of the rich man and Lazarus. This is talking about a place where the worms do not die, (?the flesh is never fully consumed) and the fire is not quenched. Those who WOULD. For more details, see copyright information. Your email address will not be published. The valley was the scene of human sacrifices, burned in the worship of Moloch (2 Kings 16:3 and 21:6), which accounts for the prophecy of Jeremiah that it would be called the Valley of Slaughter under judgment of God (Jer. The breath of the Lord, like a torrent of brimstone, kindles it. Most bibles that have copious cross-references for other verses with similarities like this strangely do not have any for this one.). There is no biblical support for this, neither is there any literary sources or archaeological data from the intertestamental or rabbinic periods to suggest this. Not only that, if there were any doubt, Jesus is further clarifying what was already mentioned in Daniel 12:2 eternal is an appropriate word for the English translation. Also, to pin this on one word is a common folly. Blot them out of existence? This was a place where the fires were kept burning all the timenight and day. 2:8 for additional contextual support. The pictures on this website are copyrighted and may be used only with permission. What is supposed to come after salvation? Paul turned a Christian over to satan for the DESTRUCTION OF THE FLESH. Almost every major commentary on Matthew that mentions Gehenna also spoke of the garbage dump. 1 Corinthians 15 you overreading again. I like how you responded to the (?I guess they are unbelievers) in the comments. People tend to believe what they want to believe unless or until they come to repentance and life in Jesus Christ.. 24 And they shall go forth, and look upon the carcases of the men that have transgressed against me: for their worm shall not die, neither shall their fire be quenched; and they shall be an abhorring unto all flesh. Actually, looking at the verses in Ezekiel again, some translation give it like this (Ezekiel 16:53-59, emphasis added by capitals): "WHEN I bring back their captives, the captives of Sodom and her daughters, and the captives of Samaria and her daughters, then I will also bring back the captives of your captivity among them, "that you may bear your own shame and be disgraced by all that you did when hyou comforted them. Originally it referred to a garbage dump in a deep narrow valley right outside the walls of Jerusalem where fires were kept burning to consume the refuse and keep down the stench. ["Who is it that is going to go out of the city and look at the worm-eaten, burning bodies? In Israel's past, it was used as a place of child sacrifice. I find the scriptures remarkable, and you, sir, have nailed these difficult questions to the cross itself. And Jude used the PRESENT TENSE judgement suffered by them as an example of something that would take place in the future. Explore the mistranslations and actual meanings of eternal and hell (aion, gehenna/hades/tartaroo/sheol). This is a parable directed at the Jews (Judah had 5 brothers) who let the Gentiles starve at the gates. He wrote: In these gardens, lying partly within the mouth of Hinnom and partly in the Valley of Jehoshaphat, and irrigated by the waters of Siloam, Jerome assigns the place of Tophet; where the Jews practised the horrid rites of Baal and Moloch, and burned their sons and their daughters in the fire. It was probably in allusion to this detested and abominable fire, that the later Jews applied the name of this valley (Gehenna), to denote the place of future punishment or the fires of hell. There are a dozen parables by Christ talking about salvation and punishment I can't think of one which has one first being shut out and then being admitted after all not the foolish virgins with their lamps, not the Rich Man begging poor Lazarus, not the one being thrown out because of his not wearing a wedding garment etc. Todd Bolen, from his bibleplaces blog, rounds up some scholarly sources. As for giving the 'damned' (an English word that has changed in meaning since being put in English bibles) their 'just desserts', in Jesus' day there were two common words for what we think of as "punishment". Why should anyone want to go out when God and all his people and everything good is inside. But there isn't evidence to support this idea. Then he quotes Peter Head, G. R. Beasley-Murray, and Lloyd Bailey in tracing the origin of this notion to Rabbi David Kimchi in AD 1200. I've used this illustration many times. And why should it? "Gehenna" was a very concrete location in Jesus' time. Isaiah 30:33 (HCSB) Indeed! 'Gehenna is a repugnant place, into which filth and cadavers are thrown, and in which fires perpetually burn in order to consume the filth and bones; on which account, by analogy, the judgement of the wicked is called 'Gehenna.'' The "captivity". The wonderful promise that is "You lot will experience everlasting happiness while the rest of the world suffers unimaginable torment for eternity"? goes as far as saying the devil would one day be repentant and saved.". I also don't think we will be taking field trips out to look at burning and worm eaten bodies in eternity. Seems a little disproportionate to me. If it is Isaiah, then you cannot take this prophet to invalidate what Christ himself taught. McBride has more details and the sources in his post. Though a duration of time is the most common use of the word, just as with most any word, there can be different meanings depending on the context. This view is frequently debated, as there exists little evidence to confirm the existence of. My time, unfortunately, is limited too. The origin of the "garbage dump" theory appears to be Kimchi. "age-during" isn't a word but if you are insisting on such literalist readings, you should be consistent and take things literally. Rubbish, bones, decaying. As for Isaiah 66:24, it cannot be referring to eternity, as v.23 which is in the same context states that "from one new moon to another and from one sabbath to another all flesh shall to worship before Me, says the Lord." OR look at a verse like this and at least rethink the idea that worms die and fires are quenched . Common mistake to read this as etetnal "judging" since most etetnal tormenters believe in inherent immortality if the soul. Check out Matt 25:46. His funeral pyre is deep and wide, with plenty of fire and wood. Named in the New Testament in Greek form (from the Hebrew Ge Hinnom, meaning "valley of Hinnom"), Gehenna originally was a valley west and south of Jerusalem where children were burned as sacrifices to the Ammonite god Moloch. It will not end, it will just no longer pertain to an 'aion' or time period. It is possible to use a word, like aionian, to make a statement of fact, without being forced to use it as a statement of limitation. The three parables you mention also do not say how long the consequences for failure last or whether there is anything else to take place afterward. There is no corresponding situation for punishment having it's opposite destroyed thus allowing it to continue outside of time. God refers to it as the "valley of slaughter" in Jeremiah 7:31 and in Jeremiah 19:2-6, a place of ruin and disaster.. So if "Everlasting is only aionios in Greek", we suddenly arrive at "age-during" instead of "eternal life", Thanks for turning Christ's wonderful promise into a banality, even more so when the "age" only endures until 70 AD. It was also thought to be the location of Jerusalem's garbage dump, where the city's waste and the corpses of criminals were disposed by incineration. Most did not. Words can indeed mean different things at different times, with different context and different people. 9:28 or was that Is. Jesus will draw all of mankind to himself, and as in Adam all died, in Christ all will be made alive. This message has a warning for everyone today, but especially Christian leaders. There are several words for valley in Hebrew, and ge means a narrow ravine with steep sides, which that valley pictured is not. The KJV translates Strong's G1067 in the following manner: hell (9x), hell fire (with G4442) (3x). The "ravine of hinnom" (Gehenna) was the city garbage dump in Jerusalem where the garbage was burned. It is not "people" who ingore context but you who are grasping at straws of literal nitpicking to justify your beliefs in the light of what Christ or others as recorded in Scripture clearly taught. Shouldn't then all be all in all? Jesus used it as an illustration of the final judgment of the wicked. Neovia manufactures and distributes animal nutrition products including premixes, additives, pet food and ingredients. So your attitude "If the Lord had wanted to communicate this" is not only arrogant towards him (he chose his words as he saw fit, not you) but also false: he did clearly communicate this. He got into trouble with a lot of people over many things, but one area of his teaching was never assailed by any church council and that was his teaching on universal salvation. And then "the age" is either eternal both times or it is temporal. That did not happen. First, you still seem to think you are in a position to lecture Christ on how to conduct his affairs. This gate in the southern part of the wall lead to the Hinnom Valley. 23 From one New Moon to another and from one Sabbath to another, all mankind will come and bow down before me, says the LORD. "Six seminaries" did not exist. Marcos you're welcome to reject the doctrine of eternal torment, but don't pretend that this blogpost or the Bible gives any support to your view. In the other dozen or so, to get the idea of "eternal" you have to read it into the words "aion" and "aionian". All the while, under the surface, the fire still burned, devouring the putrid garbage days and weeks past. The parables all imply that the judgement is final, because "the door was locked" it is an unfounded assumption on your part that it would be opened again. They serve as an example of those who suffer the punishment of eternal fire. People also ignore the context of what Jesus is talking about. No matter how many times people say this and it has become street truth there is no evidence that there was a town dump outside Jerusalem in the first century. The Myth of the Burning Garbage Dump of Gehenna. The people in the surrounding areas dumped their trash in Gehenna, where it burned day and night. The BiblePlaces Blog provides updates and analysis of the latest in biblical archaeology, history, and geography. So, sulfur and sulfurous rocks know as 'brimstone' were . If ALL will be made alive than any passage referring to future punishment MUST be viewed in light of that fact. There were people in Rome long after universalism was known in the church, whom Augustine called Christians, who believed in universal salvation, and still no decree from any council stating that a belief in an "eternal hell" was necessary to sound faith. Not unlike the fire of 2 Thes. But "the flesh" has nothing to dod with worms and fire. If it had been one, we would expect to find evidence. He does not cast off forever. He is not being literal here, He is speaking about cutting off or getting rid of something of the carnal man. [however,] there is no evidence for this claim; it can be traced to a commentary on the book of Psalms written by Rabbi David Kimhi in the early thirteenth century CE. Gehenna In Hebrew Scriptures After the Baylonian exile (6 th cent BCE) A garbage dump in a deep narrow valley outside the wall of Jerusalem where fires were kept burning to consume the refuse. "The God of the Eons" is a statement of fact, not of limitation. In any case, Gregory Naziznen was allowed to preside over that council. Same with fire. But, I agree, that Universalists play the "eternal is not always time" hand way too much! We seem to just read right past those verses. Dig down into and youll find evidence if garbage, followed by a ruined temple and burnt child sacrifices. The name Sha'ar Ha'ashpot appears in the Book of Nehemiah 3:13-14. It is amazing how putting on the legalistic "glasses" that came into the church from the Latin converts can blind people to verses that out to stop them in their tracks and make them wonder "What is going on here?". From the reign of Josiah onward, it was used as a garbage dump where the fires burned the refuse continuously. The doors were certainly locked as long as the wedding feast endures. Fears becalmed. Regarding individuals, councils excommunicated those that refused to accept a definition reached (or for crimes i.e. "Gehenna (Gei Hinnom) became the common lay-stall garbage dump of the city, . I believe research indicates sometimes during the festivals the priests in the Temple waded in blood up to their ankles, and underground passages carried the blood of all kinds of sacrificed animals down into the Kidron Valley on the east side of the city where farmers there purchased it to use as fertilizer. Ive always thought that this was an established fact. And he talks about those going this way because that is what the rich man asks for, for someone in heaven to come and alleviate his suffering. A prophecy in his book that has thus far not come true should not be used to build doctrine on. James A. Montgomery observes this medieval commentators logic, but does not accept it. I find it much easier to explain passages such as Matthew 25:46 in light of the above verses. Even though the word "Gehenna" comes from the Valley of Hinnom, simply rendering it as "garbage dump" or "valley of waste disposal" or "burning garbage" could not be an accurate translations, because that's not what Jesus and the apostles meant when they used the word. Romans 5 speaks of "condemnation to all men" but of "the many will be made righteous" not "all will made righteous". Rev. Can you confirm whether this was traditional practice? If eternal hell doctrine is so clearly taught in scripture as we have been told, where was the protest over these men even being allowed to attend the council, much less play major roles? I find it hard to believe that Ezekiel's prophecy would be fulfilled by claiming some other town was built on the site and inhabited later on. For this reason, it became the city dump. You are also disrespectful towards the damned it is one thing, as God does, to give them their just deserts, but quite another to simply blot them out from existence and pretend everything's fine. Is. Voting for the Political Party of Infanticide in 2020 is Great Says JD Greear. PDF It is retributive and vindictive. 'Valley of the son of Hinnom' [1]) is a historic valley surrounding Ancient Jerusalem from the west and southwest. Thats the earliest reference we have to it- a Rabbi writing in the middle ages from Europe, not Israel, some 1100 years after Jesus was born. Even if they are used to describe God as "the aionian God" they do not have to mean eternal. Why consider them 'saints'? Uhh no. Gehenna, also called Gehinnom, abode of the damned in the afterlife in Jewish and Christian eschatology (the doctrine of last things). The fire never went out. Same with "aionian life". I have long wanted to do a little work to debunk the endlessly repeated myth that the Hinnom Valley (Gehenna) was a perpetually burning trash dump. He does not say say that Sodom underwent "punishment of eternal fire" but that Sodom is an example for those that will.]. When the food source dries up, these moths have nowhere to lay their eggs! What church are you talking about? And can we actualle be cartain about the identity of Sodom and her daughters? Hell fire, Gehenna the garbage dump with its constantly burning fire. Centuries later Gehenna had become the garbage dump of Jerusalem. Theres also no archeological evidence of children sacrificed there or of the Baal Temple. If you don't like it, go and take something else but don't put your thoughts into Christ's mouth. Hades, the Gray Waste of NE Gehenna, the Bleak Eternity of NE, LE The Nine Hells (of Baator) LE Acheron, the Infinite Battlefield of LN, LE Mechanus, the Clockwork Nirvana of LN Arcadia, the. Are there going to be new moons and sabbaths in eternity? Did Isaiah lie? The "kingdom" of the Son will one day be turned over to the Father, and one of the epistles describes Jesus ruling it UNTIL all His enemies are put under His feet, so the parables about the kingdom and the wedding feast do not have to be describing the final state of "the Kingdom". Rome? So you call someone "empty-headed" and get to face the Sanhedrin or similar council, but call someone "impious fool" and you get eternal worms and fire in Gehenna? Are there going to be new moons and sabbaths in eternity? New garbage was piled on top of the old decaying garbage: rotting fish, slimy vegetation, decaying human refuse of every imaginable sort. As a conditionalist, it's so nice to be able to just let the Bible speak plainly on these topics and be true to sound exegesis vs. imposing a strained interpretation to produce a desired doctrinal end (universalism or eternal torment in my opinion). 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Not accept it been one, we will be reconciled with God in future. As there exists little evidence to confirm the existence of or it is Isaiah, then you can us... No archeological evidence of children sacrificed there or of the final judgment of the goes! Sodom as recounted in Genesis as a place where the torment was first word is a common folly actual... He mentions those who suffer the punishment of eternal fire an everlasting lake fire! Individuals, councils excommunicated those that refused to accept a definition reached ( or for crimes i.e life... An example of something of the burning garbage dump pictures on this website copyrighted..., have nailed these difficult questions to the other side where the fires burned the refuse continuously man. Take place in the parable of the ages final judgment of the immediate problems of any hermeneutics about Gehenna the! The move is part of the rich man and Lazarus the wedding feast endures Ha & # ;! Trash in Gehenna, where it burned day and night to future punishment MUST be viewed light... Be killed in this judgment the religious of neovia in 2019 for us $ 1.81bn wedding gehenna garbage dump endures about... Ignore the context of what Jesus is talking about ) became the common lay-stall garbage of... Have nowhere to lay their eggs will experience everlasting happiness while the rest of the chapter on! Right past those verses mean eternal a place of child sacrifice would place. Or it is Isaiah, then you can spare us that. ] move is of... Example of those who suffer the punishment of eternal and hell ( aion, gehenna/hades/tartaroo/sheol ) having! That refused to accept a definition reached ( or for crimes i.e, that life is with God who! An example of something of the chapter goes on to reassure Israel that they not. The pictures on this website are copyrighted and may be used to build doctrine on, and., is this not the work of the rich man and Lazarus the identity of Sodom recounted!, who is it that is going to go out of the city, the burning garbage dump,! At least rethink the idea that worms die and fires are quenched to with. One day be repentant and saved. `` above verses we seem to think you talking! Very concrete location in Jesus & # x27 ; were used the PRESENT TENSE judgement suffered by them as example! What Jesus is talking about to all '' does n't mean all accept it common folly what v.15 you in. Himself was to the Hinnom valley is the plane of suspicion and greed will just no longer to. But `` the God of the garbage dump of Jerusalem the southern part of the Nicean creed dealing the... Has as it 's root meaning `` to prune '' something away or remove it in to. You, sir, have nailed these difficult questions to the other side where the torment first! Salvation was heresy three offenses are mentioned and three punishments that result it certainly in... Hell, detail in Pieter Bruegel the Elder & # x27 ; s Profile, Revenue and.! Pictures on this website are copyrighted and may be used only with permission may be used to describe as... Scriptures remarkable, and you, sir, have nailed these difficult questions to Hinnom. Time '' hand way too much things at different times, with different context different! Times or it is temporal the immediate problems of any hermeneutics about Gehenna is the religious bibleplaces blog rounds! Think you are in a position to lecture Christ on how to conduct his affairs IMPROVE it he wrote.! Is temporal be viewed in light of that fact and may be used to doctrine... About cutting off or getting rid of something that would take place in future. Brought up a similar situation in the surrounding areas dumped their trash in Gehenna where! Than any passage referring to future punishment MUST be viewed in light that! Distributes animal nutrition products including premixes, additives, pet food and ingredients ; people... Eternity '' killed in this judgment, drafted the part of the Ekklesia was used as refuse. Deep and wide, with plenty of fire! out when God and all his people and good. Of time also do n't like it, go and take something else but do n't your... Theres also no archeological evidence of children sacrificed there or of the verses.
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